Jonny talks with Sean Wolcott about how his design studio is also a personal practice, blending business and culture and to make sure that the audience feels the work he’s putting out into the world.
Jonny: [00:00:00] I'm curious, so the Rationale studio is in Pioneer Square. Where are you now? Are you at home? Are you setting up a new studio?
Sean: Yeah, actually my studio now is in, uh, downtown Everett, and, uh, I've got a space there I'm in the process of setting up. I mean, it's mostly set up. It takes some time to get things dialed in and all that.
Jonny: Are you moving just out of the Pioneer Square office completely?
Sean: Yeah, I mean, the reality is, I was born in Seattle, grew up in Woodinville, but a number of years ago, my wife and I, we just found a really cool house in Everett that, like, has a panoramic view of the San Juans and, like, is on, like, It's like an acre and has this cool yard and it was like built in the 50s by an architect named Harold Hall, who apparently studied with Frank Lloyd Wright, and he built the house for Dale Chihuly's like mentor, a guy named Russell Day in like the 50s.
And it's a rental, but I mean, we had sold a house and like lived down in the Bay Area for a while and we're looking for like something that just wasn't like soul sucking [00:01:00] suburbia and we're kind of open to where it is. And I mean, at this point, Seattle's kind of changed in a lot of ways for the worse, unfortunately.
I mean, everything's always changing. But anyways, we found this place, and it was like, okay, we're gonna live here. And, you know, so basically, for the price of a, you know, half bedroom apartment on Capitol Hill, you know, we get like a 2, 500 square foot house with a yard. So, being a sort of artistically minded person that wants independence in their decisions, and not to do the kind of corporate churn, Makes sense to set up shop where it's not ridiculously expensive and priced for sort of tech dystopia
Jonny: Yeah. Set yourself up for growth, not for fitting into that mold.
Sean: and actually in that sense, you know, I've sort of set myself up to for non growth, but that's a separate topic I guess
Jonny: Okay. So I guess put together a little bit of this timeline for me. You were working for major design agencies in the 2000s, and then all over Seattle. You did kind of what I call the Seattle tech [00:02:00] shuffle, where a lot of people do work for larger, including myself, larger tech companies, and then go off and kind of do something that is more reflective of their interests.
So, but you were already working on your own studio during this time, correct?
Sean: yeah So rationale is something that sort of started without a name and I guess about 2008 sort of a effort to kind of set up a studio And I had a name in 2012 and I had an idea of a name and ran it past Massimo Vignelli who was my design mentor. It's like, Oh, that's a good name. And we had discussions about that.
So I'm like, Oh yeah, that's the name and sort of started operating it kind of on the side as a studio. And then 2016 or 17, I sort of focused, switched to focus on that full time and no looking back.
Jonny: That's awesome. And how did you get the chance to study with Massimo? Because you were at Microsoft at the time, and then you took a master class.
Sean: Yeah, I can tell [00:03:00] you. So, I mean, going way back, I mean, as I mentioned, I was born in Seattle and I grew up in Woodinville and I mean, Woodinville now is like this mini Napa Valley place. But you know, my dad always liked to say that, you know, when I was born in 1976 in Woodinville, there was only a strip club and a bar, you know, that was all that Woodinville had.
Literally. My mother has a photo of me at like the McDonald's opening in like 1981 in Woodinville. And it's just like an empty field, you know, behind me. Anyways, grew up out there, and, and uh, I always just really loved to draw. And that was kind of my primary obsession, so. I would do, you know, Christmas cards, and like sneak in like some Tie Fighters in the background.
Just drawing, you know, Santa on his sleigh. But just really loved to draw, loved, you know, art, and that was kind of my main, I was always terrible at sports. But that was kind of my primary motivation, was just to make things. And just to, really into Legos, and building things. And then got into music as a teenager and that, you know, continues to be kind of [00:04:00] an important part of my creative life.
But anyways, I was doing some, you know, rub off letter type stuff and like photocopies and things that were essentially graphic design. I just didn't really know. That's what it was or that's what it was called and growing up, you know, seeing my dad's records and vinyl, you know, sort of the music aspect of things, you know, seeing that as a kid and even the albums I liked, you know, was sort of, it was album stuff, but I didn't know it was design and sort of a teacher saw something I was doing.
It's like, Oh, you should take this graphic design class as part of the school district. So Woodinville High School, my junior and senior year for two hours every day, I went and spent time at like the school district's their printing plant and got to use the computer and actually do some like paste up as that was like already well out the door and using programs like freehand and all this page maker and other apps that no longer exist anymore but for me it was more just like hey this is fun this is like an extension of [00:05:00] And I was always kind of interested in technology.
And we had a Commodore 64 computer when I was a kid. And I would just like go in there and like, try to do like art related things and sort of. Fail miserably because, you know, you'd have to put in like 300 lines of code and get a whole lot of nothing out of it. So anyways, this idea of kind of the Apple computer and what was possible.
So we're talking, you know, early 90s and at this point, you know, this would be, uh, 94, 95. I was doing that. So I, in that sense, you know, I'm like, oh, okay, design. And I mean, at that point, you know, just sort of, it was a thing to do. And ended up getting some high school jobs at some printing places. So I like, uh, there's a place called Alpha Graphics.
I would just run the copy machine. My first job there was doing color copies of cars after the accident, which was kind of a weird thing for insurance purposes. But I would work on Saturdays and at this place it was always dead as can be on Saturdays and they had like a Mac quadra or whatever the, you know, [00:06:00] fancy computer was at that time.
So on Saturdays, like nobody would come in. I would just hang out on their like desktop publishing computer and just like make stuff just for fun. So anyways, that kind of led me to like, getting a job at like, Kinko's, you know, now known as FedEx Office. Where I was doing, you know, essentially desktop publishing, just making, you know, crappy little resumes and whatever for people.
And then for me, that was a way just to kind of mess around with the things I was interested in, not get your typical restaurant job, etc. So I did that, and then, you know, that ended up kind of leading, ended up going to Shoreline Community College for audio engineering and design. But really, I didn't know anything about really what quote unquote good design was at that point.
It was just something I liked and was interested in. And at the community college, both with the audio engineering and the design, both, which are kind of aspects that are interesting to me today, it was just kind of stuff I already knew, you know, not necessarily that I knew more than the teachers, but it's like, it was just.
You know, here's how you use Illustrator, and let's trace, uh, something and recreate it in [00:07:00] Illustrator. And I didn't really know that I was kind of yearning for some kind of formal understanding. Everyone would consider going to, like, a four year college or a design school. That just kind of sounded boring to me.
So I ended up, you know, dropping out of there, and then just continued to work full time at Kinko's. And then pretty quickly, I got a job at a place called Photodisc in Seattle. Through just really my mother knew someone who was an illustrator that knew people there. So at that point I was doing like design for These, like, photo catalogs.
But actually, the person I was working with mostly was a outside designer, a guy named Andy Weed. Andy, I mean, sort of, he was kind of a good sort of initial guiding force for me. And that actually, it turns out, he studied in, like, Basel and Switzerland and, you know, met Armand Hoffman and, like, was there in, like, the 80s.
Like, when Steve Jobs gave them Apple computers for the first time and kind of learned all of that out there. So for me, like I just printed out all these photos and like color [00:08:00] copies and we cut them out and we like put them on a grid and I still, you know, keep in touch to Andy to this day, who's down in Arizona now.
This is the longest answer ever, by the way. Uh, but the reason I'm saying these things is it kind of leads up to a moment. So from there, I ended up going to a place called the Linhart group in Seattle that ended up. being bought out by a British, weird brand agency called Fitch. So I worked there, and then kind of early ish 2000s, I don't even know how it happened, but I just sort of like tripped and fell on like Vignelli.
com. And when I saw that, I was just like, wait, whoa, wait, what is this? You know, just the, and it wasn't like, oh, this is the best design I've seen, which, I mean. It kind of was in a way, but not, it wasn't this like dogmatic thing per se. It was more just me, so if you can imagine, the late 90s, everything was kind of this weird postmodern clutter where people are like stretching typefaces out, and there's just using these bizarre typefaces.
And I mean, I'm a big fan of [00:09:00] experimentation and like pushing things, but I didn't really know what I was looking for, but I had a sense that like there was something kind of gross to me about the things that I saw.
Jonny: Yeah, if you put like Neville Brody and Massimo Vignelli next to each other, they don't even look like they're coming out of the same timeline.
Sean: Yeah, yeah, and I mean I like Neville Brody and some of his stuff And I mean people confuse this type of thing as like some very dogmatic idea and even with Massimo You know knowing him personally his design was just a reflection of his personality. It wasn't really some like religious ethos per se it was just Like, hey, we're designers, you know, if you're doing like Ray Gunn Magazine, that's one thing.
But you're just trying to make things clear for people. You're trying to make things just understandable for people. So there's that aspect of things. But then for Massimo in particular, there was the notion of kind of just like visual power. You know, how you can utilize simple things in a refined way and really make something that's like very just kind of impactful in a timeless sort of way.
And that [00:10:00] was just something he happened to be good at. I think his tastes were a lot broader than people realize. You know, it wasn't just like this kind of hyper horse blinders view of things per se. But anyways, you know, I just thought kind of just the weirdness around me and that, you know, I saw his work on the web, it just really resonated with me.
And then, you know, from there it was just this notion of like, oh, it kind of, you know, switched on a light bulb or opened a door to a room that I didn't know existed and that was, you know, massive with possibility. And actually at this point, you know, 2000 I mean, there wasn't shit on the web for design, really.
I mean, we forget, you know, you look at, like, websites in 2005, you'd think you're looking at, like, 1984 or something. It's I think people forget how fast things have gotten better, even if you go a decade back. So there wasn't very much, but I just had this notion of, like, oh How can I like work there, like meet this guy or something.
And, but that kind of just opened up possibility and then slowly kind of learned about designers like Jacqueline [00:11:00] Casey and then like Joseph Mueller Brockman and then you sort of the floodgates opened and I've got 600 design books behind me and in front of me right now that I've sort of just got for cheap here and there over the years.
So that really kind of opened up a world of possibility. But meanwhile, you know, I continue to work in the agency world. And did some kind of stuff contracting for places. And at the Linhart Group it was actually more print production type stuff that I did there. And actually I think the first, when I first started they were like, Oh this is the design department over there, And here's like the production department on our side.
And people don't like move from one to the other was what they told me.
Jonny: That's a pretty classic structure of a studio.
Sean: Yeah, but in my head there's kind of this rebellious, You know, you can't tell me what I can't do kind of thing. So I'm going to get to be a designer better than all those. folks over there someday. Or kind of in my head like, well, you can't say what I can and can't do. But anyways, you know, so that just kind of [00:12:00] opened my understanding and that just kind of helped me to realize what was possible.
So for me, it was just kind of self education through books and the internet and then um Probably, I think, 2009, 2010, Massimo Vignelli published the canon. Actually, there was somebody, a woman named Ellen McFadden, who's like in her 90s now, and I'm friends with. She's actually just a fantastic painter, and sort of the art concrete style.
But anyway, she on Flickr posted all these, like, 35 millimeter slides that she had collected over the decades that she used to teach design in, like, the 50s and 60s in Portland and beyond. And that kind of, I think for a lot of people, like the stuff he, she posted in like the early design days of like design history on the internet, that had a big impact in kind of my awareness of things.
And then from there, sort of, you know, a flicker and like seeing other people post it and just sort of applying what I could to, you know, whatever, just random [00:13:00] kind of, you know, agency ish design work at that point, you know, which wasn't too much. But I wanted some change and left and was like looking for a new job and ended up Knowing somebody at Microsoft, and I mean Microsoft sort of as like, Hey, we work at Microsoft, like, you know, I was like, no, but it was Xbox and like, Hey, I've got an Xbox and for me too, there's a separate thing kind of way back to even the Commodore 64 that, you know, sort of design for technology.
You know, it's something, you know, that's where the people are, that good design should be everywhere. And I think, you know, a lot of the sort of modernist design teachers, there was kind of a utopian interpretation of that, that, you know, went a little far. But, you know, meanwhile, you know, you see, like, great design that's a 5, 000 chair that's not for regular people, and it's not even built that well.
Or there's the 8, 000 Null table, which I happen to get for 500, but my wife and I were moving a week ago, and it just like cracks in half and falls into four pieces. It's like, can you imagine if you paid eight grand for this? [00:14:00] I mean, it's a Florence Null marble table, just beautiful, but like 8, 000? Come on, like, I mean, good design, you know, needs to be quality, but The notion of design being accessible is something that's important to me.
And that doesn't mean as designers we work for free, but it means the things that we do should be lasting. So that's kind of things that resonated with me in Massimo's writing and other things. But as I was saying though, around 2010 or so, he published online for free, the Vignelli Canon. And that was kind of another level of like, holy shit, you know, this just like, takes Things and like makes a lot of sense and there's a lot to like deep dive on this stuff So anyways worked at microsoft and around 2011 I had this notion that just like Like, hey, you know, Mossimo's like 79 or something at this point.
This guy's not going to be around that long. Like, I need to sort of fulfill that seed in my head from, you know, many years ago seeing the, you know, 600 pixel wide [00:15:00] Vignelli. com. So, I looked online and actually it was like, oh, just announced in Rochester, New York at the freshly opened Vignelli Institute for Design Studies that, you know, Mossimo's giving a master class.
So, for me, it was just, uh, I'm just like, oh crap, and I got to make this happen. So, you know, did some side work and just kind of saved up the money to like fly out there and go do that for a week. And, you know, went, did it, you know, got to meet him. And that was just amazing. But just the man himself was just so passionate and kind and inquisitive and just sort of faster thinking and more optimistic than like the young people, you know, here at 79 years old.
But anyways, we did a project that was like to sort of make a identity project, you know, for some sort of Rochester institution. And at a certain point, you know, I showed Massimo some of my design work and he's like, you're pretty good. You know, where'd you learn? And I'm like, well, I'm self taught, but mostly just from, you know, reading your writings [00:16:00] and other things.
And then he said, you know, you're like me, passion is the greatest teacher. And the rest of the workshop just got to hear all sorts of, you know, See funny things and crazy drama and getting pissed off, you know, when somebody's designing something shitty. But anyways, I mean, just reading things was one thing, but just being there firsthand just took it to a whole new level.
Just in terms of, like, just sitting with somebody and just, like, working through a design idea with them. It's just interesting how much you can learn. Not even in, like, what they're saying to you, but just, like, their presence, like, almost can impart something. So that really had a big impact and then I feel like I grew a lot that next year and what I had applied and then ended up going back the next, you know, and did even more.
And at that point, you know, Massimo just started really, I mean, we got to be closer friends and Massimo started to sort of trust me where students would have like a sign up where they'd have to like, you know, schedule time to like show Massimo what they were doing. [00:17:00] And he'd start saying just like, oh, go talk to Sean first.
And then eventually, you know, I'd go out to New York and then end up going to visit him and his wife, Lella, who at that point, you know, started to have dementia. So I never really knew Lella, kind of, as she was, you could say. But, you know, just would go out there with my wife, and they'd take us out to dinner, and we'd go eat at SD 26, where that Massimo and Lella did the identity and all the interiors for, and we'd just order whatever we wanted because he did it all for free.
And just got infinite nice Italian dinners in New York City. And it ended up being where eventually, I get an email from him, like, he's like, Oh, what do you think of this? So it's like, wait, what? This is like, mind blowing.
Jonny: I very much enjoy that. And that's kind of the richest in the background that I'm looking for. You touched on a lot of things. Can you tell me more about, I guess, the size of the studio today and maybe how has it grown or shrank or what is the structure of it?
Sean: Yeah, I mean, the structure, so having [00:18:00] done work in corporate environments and like, led bigger teams and startups, etc. I mean, just the reality is, it's like, the bigger the team, the less you're designing. And, you know, I talk to most of my friends that run bigger studios. They're like, oh, I never design, and, oh, I just hate design now.
You know, it's like, it's like, oh, that's depressing. But, for me, it's basically as little people as possible is the idea. And obviously, as like a business owner, if you have more people, you have kind of more profit margin. You can sort of eke out of, you know, different sources. But for me, though, like I don't want the burden of just having to sort of feed the beast of your machine that you've made.
I want to like sort of pursue exciting design projects and feel like, you know, we can contribute to things. That are, you know, meaningful and have like good outcomes that we're proud of and share out to people. So, as a result of all that, you know, it's basically always two people. Me and somebody else.
And it was me and another guy named Andre Meca for a [00:19:00] while, who's still a great designer and actually in Portugal. But, you know, having somebody just that I can sit next to here, just again that communication that is not in the Discord channel or not on the video call, just the presence of being together and seeing things, there's like something that I think that gets lost.
However, I mean, we work with most of our clients. It's much like we're doing now. And I think that's true for a lot of designers and even after the pandemic, you know, sort of clients being in San Francisco and in New York and here and there, you know, a lot of remote things I think is fine, but in terms of collaboration, that's really nice to be in the room together.
So, yeah, it's two people, has been two people, probably always will be. And that allows me to be a person that's designing 90 percent of my day, not just sort of, you know, art directing essentially, because I think, you know, so much of design, it's not, you know, here we are talking and I'm not shutting up about things, but actually design is, it has nothing to do with words.
It's just really kind of an [00:20:00] intuition, you know, more than anything. And it's actually, you know, the creative process in general. is about finding things that you didn't tell somebody to do or to try. It's sort of stumbling and ending up somewhere that's even better than what you could have thought of.
Those are the types of things that only can happen if you just sort of put on some good records and, or a podcast or whatever and just sort of focus and get into the flow of things and find the thing that feels like a fresh discovery to you as much as anyone else. And I think that really gets lost, you know, when you're just pointing and guiding people.
I mean, there's much to be done in that space to help people out and guide them in the right direction. But I think the most important thing that rationale can contribute is that sort of unexpected quality that, you know, me As a designer. So it's not a company I'll sell to so and so or this rationale really is a reflection of kind of my view of design.
It's a personal thing. So in that sense, it's sort of, you know, can't really grow in the traditional [00:21:00] sense. I mean, there's times where, I mean, not to say that there couldn't be other people that kind of share the same ethos, you know, it doesn't have to be about me per se, but again, you sort of get roped into management and personalities.
So yeah, it's two of us, and in this case it's Sullivan. Kennedy is the other designer of Rationale. And he's actually my nephew, and he's kind of been working for me off and on for a number of years. But he's 20 now, and I can Sometimes, you know, when we're busy, we have a project, you know, where he's giving instructions to somebody, you know, older than him, just because he's had some good experience here.
So, yeah, occasionally, you know, things, like, it's a project we just can't turn down, just because we're excited to do it, and we'll bring somebody outside that we trust to help out. And also, we'll do, like, websites and things like that, you know, fairly often, and we don't have any developers in house, but have some developers that we really trust for web or for applications.
So, it's a small and sort of intended to be that way, so I can, uh, be the happiest [00:22:00] designing.
Jonny: Is there a tension there in trying to keep that balance in that as a larger company, there's a, maybe a little bit more cushion between. Projects that make people happy and projects that keep the beast fed.
Sean: Yeah, no, I think there absolutely is. That's unavoidable. The thing last year that we did might have been the thing we made the least money on. And the thing that we made the most money on is not something that we're not proud of. But it made the most money and, you know, we did good work and it contributed towards meaningful things.
But for me too, design just, it's not just aesthetic, it's how things function, it's really the whole thought process. So in that sense, we like to do things that are UI, UX related, where there's sort of aesthetic moments and we feel like we can contribute and make that better. But we like consulting with companies on, like, how to make their products better.
Because, again, that gets back to the, you know, it's not a 8, 000 null table that's going to disintegrate, but products that are used by millions of people to [00:23:00] be able to apply our expertise to that. And it's, sometimes it's not things that it's like, oh, I can totally tell that, you know, Sean did that graphic or whatever.
But I think having kind of both sides of that skill set, just the nitty gritty down in the details. Sort of experiential side, it's just as important to me as the sort of big picture, visual impact side of things.
Jonny: I guess you have gone through this learning process of gathering and collecting and becoming an art historian yourself and bringing all those objects and collections of things around yourself. I'm kind of curious how much of it is kind of the seeking of this common language. And how much of it is seeing what has worked as a common language in the past and applying those ideas to new problems?
Sean: Yeah, I think if I look back, you know, and you learn things that there's never like for me, there's not like a fetishization of sort of modernist design or the grid. I love the [00:24:00] grid and I love modernist quote unquote design. But the things, you know, the books you can see behind me. I look in those, you know, and sort of, it's not like, ooh, I want to do things like that one thing, but more I see sort of things that are, you know, catch you and grab you in a way that's just hard to articulate, just on an emotional scale.
But I see things that just really work in terms of functionality and flow and sort of gestalt principles that, you know, I get forgotten. And if you apply to A UI screen or a poster or a brochure or whatever can help make something better. And I think just as a designer, the ongoing process is sort of to weed out your sort of quote unquote fancy ideas and try to find simple and effective things.
And in a certain way, like simple and effective things are the hardest to do, or take a certain boldness of just doing something that's very straightforward. But for me, that's essential to the design process, is kind of distilling ideas down. And that was the thing that appealed [00:25:00] to me when I saw Massimo Vignelli's work.
So, when I look at the books and things I've collected, I see a distillation of things that resonates with me. That's really the main thing. And having, you know, lots of design artifacts. And I think you came to the poster show I had at Civilization. So I have a lot of posters, but for me, I don't care if they're quote unquote modernists or any of that.
I just care if they speak to me and they speak to me usually when there's kind of that. Sort of evocative quality of distillation using color and type and other forms. But I don't think of any of it as a collection. I mean, I sure got a lot of crap for sort of being a non collector. But it's not my collection, you know, per se.
They're just Like, oh, I'm working on a project and, you know, it's not a matter of like, oh, how can I, like, rip off an idea out of this book behind me. It's not about that. It's more just about sort of disrupting the feedback loop of the space you're in and, you know, just sort of getting ideas from different angles or you [00:26:00] might see something and what you do is nothing like what you saw, but it stimulates a thought that moves things in a direction that you wouldn't have thought otherwise.
So I think that having, uh, things, you know, quick at your fingertips, you know, be it internet or physical media is great to have. But with the posters in particular, if you've seen, like, a Joseph Miller Brockman poster as a thousand by four hundred pixel image, that's one thing, but when it's, like, right next to you.
And it's 60 inches high. It has another, like, level of emotional impact that I think, you know, people don't realize. So that kind of sense of scale, that helps to answer.
Jonny: Yeah, well, and creating that environment that you put yourself into, both the physical and the mental environment of having a creative space or having a studio that challenges you to come up with new ideas. That's
Sean: Or you just want to hang out. You know, you feel comfortable there. And not necessarily just like the seats are [00:27:00] nice, but the sit in. But there's things around you that just sort of trigger, you know, thoughts and feelings and emotions. It's great when you're sort of trying to create the intangible for your clients.
Jonny: Yeah. So I guess I wanna be respectful of your time, but I'm curious, where is rationale headed on this new transition to a new place? And are you happy with it? Are you excited about it or are you concerned?
Sean: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, more than ever, I'm excited. I think, you know, the longer, sort of, focused on rationale as a solo endeavor, you know, come five years now. I mean, Massimo said to me once, you know, if you get a good client, they're going to give you more good clients, and if you get a bad client, they're going to give you worse clients.
And these kind of oversimplifications are actually, it's kind of fun to see them play themselves out where the client I did work for three years ago has like blossomed to like five other clients. [00:28:00] So you do good work for one person, and then, you know, you meet people, and then that leads to a new project, and then you do a good job on that, and then like, oh, here's this other thing, and like, sort of seeing the tree grow, and like, the amount of branches happen.
But to a certain degree, it's like, you start to get, you go from sort of no opportunities to like, too many. So, having to say no to things that don't seem like they're as fun as the other ones. I'm okay with that, you know, or if they want, but I think ideally I want people that want to hire rationale, they're not just looking for whoever, you know, they've seen our work, uh, has a point of view and it resonates with them on a personal level.
It's not about design history, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, boring stuff. It's just like, Oh, this emotionally resonates with me. And that's, you know, most of our clients, they see it, you know, it's either for them or not. And if it is for them, you know, we're usually almost always a good fit. And there's not a lot of, you know, arguing or back and forth.
It's just a pretty collaborative, you know, easy, fun process. [00:29:00] I mean, it's hard work, of course. But, I mean, 2020 was obviously just a bad, weird year on a lot of levels. But we were fortunate to, you know, stay pretty steady. But since this year started, there's been probably more job leads and more things than ever.
To the point where it is a little stressful, and I'm kind of freaking out of like, Oh, I want to do all these things, and how, how do we do that with sleeping and bathroom breaks included? And also as a business owner, you know, I am sort of creative director slash designer slash bathroom cleaner slash tax guy, payroll guy.
So it's, you have to wear a lot of hats, but I think just, you know, the longer you do something, the more you mess up and you mess up and learn to not do it the way you messed it up before. And that's usually how I learn, be it design or taxes. So I feel things are in a good place. I'm, you know, optimistic about, you know, where they're headed and just excited to do what I love.
Jonny: And do you enjoy wearing all those [00:30:00] hats?
Sean: I do in kind of a weird, I mean, it's not really too masochistic, but it's, I think if you approach all of those things as if they are design, it's actually kind of fun. So the way I account for, the way I set up my bank accounts for the business, that I have a bank account, one bank account is income, one bank account is payroll, one bank account is taxes, another bank account is operations.
And just by doing that for that simple thing that like made me like not be like awful. I like. Cash flow for my business. So sort of approaching all of these things as design and trying to sort of messing up, trying things, doing it not so good and finding kind of the simple solution is like really satisfying.
So I, uh, do enjoy those things, you know, especially now that I've done it for longer and. I feel like I'm, you know, semi competent at them. But nothing compares just to the process of doing it, the design itself. But these other things sort of become fun design projects in their own weird sort of way, and enable the [00:31:00] other things to happen.
Jonny: That's awesome. And what does or what would get you up at 5 a. m. with a smile?
Sean: Nothing at 5am. I don't smile till at least 9. 30am. These days I tend to stay up fairly late, I mean not crazy late, 1 a. m. or so, and then get up around 8. But I've got two kids and you know having some time to just the wife or just me to just hang out. And not even if I do work or whatever per se, I mean sometimes you just have to, but just have some time just to reflect and take in things, not just put things out, is a good process as well I think.
Jonny: Excellent. How do you engage with the Seattle community, creative community, and how are you kind of maybe planning to engage with the Everett community?
Sean: I don't know, I mean I have a lot of friends, sort of just organically in the design world, just. I know somebody who knows somebody else. But I think for the most part, I'm just kind of busy doing the work and then, you know, spending time with my family and sort of network and do this or that, you know, stuff [00:32:00] sort of just gets by the wayside just because you're busy doing your work.
But I think, you know, in Everett, it is good to see just more restaurants happen. Everett's like filing to be like a artist. City, something to that effect. So, I think as, you know, Seattle gets sort of, you know, overpriced and overtaken in kind of awkward ways, more creative people are moving to Tacoma or up north to Everett.
So it is nice to be at a smaller place right now that's still close to Seattle, but you feel like you have a little more community than maybe you do in Seattle. I really like Seattle. I'm there a lot. And things change, obviously, but it's, I think in a lot of ways, it's just changed in a way that is Serving the top, not the bottom.
Jonny: Has that growth of the city Within its sectors brought more work in for you or kind of pushed it away.
Sean: No, not really. I mean, I hardly have any Seattle clients or, and I have no Everett clients. And I think, you know, if somebody is just looking for a designer locally, [00:33:00] I mean, our rates are probably better than a lot of people, but we're not usually the best fit for just random person off the street. That's where the word of mouth connections just really serve us the best.
Because, like, people that appreciate what we do, you know, know other people that they know are going to appreciate what we do because they know them personally. And then that kind of ends up leading to a lot of the best work leads in that sense. But, you know, I know there's some other kind of smaller shops around town and getting out there and, you know, having events and things, you know, Seattle or Everett.
I think it'd be good to get back to a little bit, however we can.
Jonny: You kind of described this almost friendly client relationship. Is that common throughout all of your,
Sean: Yeah, I mean, I think all of my clients I would consider friends. And that's a great thing to have. It just means you're, you're with people that trust you and you trust them. They're coming to you because you do something that they don't do. And meanwhile, they do something that you don't do and you [00:34:00] have, can have a meaningful partnership.
So I think in the creative world too often, there's either two ways. There's either like, I give you a thousand options and just am sort of a pencil that you push your hands on and move where you want to, or there's the other side of. Sort of, I'm the artistic diva, and I give you one thing, and you just shut up and, like, say thank you, and bow down.
But I think the reality, and the reality of really, kind of, designers I admire, and, you know, work I admire, was a lot more collaborative than people realize. But they trust my instincts, it's not, Sean, you shouldn't use that shade of green, you know, it should be this one. There's a lot of trust because of that partnership, and that results in work that is It's kind of more on the side of like, I just give you the thing and you say thank you, but it's not some Eva play.
It's more about, I'm not going to waste your time. I'm only going to show you the things that I think are really fantastic. And in the process of discovery, you know, rarely is there like [00:35:00] 87 like brilliant ideas. Usually you only have one or two and you sort of calibrate and refine that, you know, with your clients in a way that is not a waste of people's times and like gets to good results and is.
And I think too often it's like, Oh, we need to give them seven options. And, you know, the client gets shown, you know, seven just crappy ideas, you know, maybe one mediocre one. And like nobody ever really kind of got to the, stellar things, or was able to go deep because they were trying to go broad.
Jonny: does that affect kind of the contractual relationships that you have with your clients? Is it more structured or less structured?
Sean: I mean, it's, I try to keep it sort of as less structured as possible, but it's, I mean, time is kind of the thing that pushes things forward, meaning we're launching in June, or this website needs to go live by this date, you know, we need our identity done by, you know, August. So I think those are the things that really help push it forward.
I mean, I do try to keep things, again, as simple as [00:36:00] possible of, you know, here's the phase of discovery, and then design, and then launch. And then we get X number of revisions, I show you X number of options, you know, sort of keeping things simple but kind of on the side of less to keep things focused on quality versus quantity is always my goal.
Jonny: That's awesome. I think you've exhausted my list of questions.
Sean: Thanks, Johnny. It was good to chat with you.
Jonny: Absolutely, thank you.